1 [20:22] --> FD (f.dumas@80.82.24.20) hat #board-meeting betreten
   2 [21:04] --> Etienne (2efdbfd9@localhost) hat #board-meeting betreten
   3 [21:06] <Etienne> Hello
   4 [21:07] <sat> Good evening!
   5 [21:07] <Etienne> Good evening, sat; is FD also here?
   6 [21:08] <FD> Good evening Etienne, Sasha
   7 [21:09] <Etienne> I am sorry for beeing late, I just arrived at home from another meeting.
   8 [21:10] <Etienne> Should we start?
   9 [21:10] <FD> Please
  10 [21:11] <FD> https://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee/MeetingAgendasAndMinutes/2020-01-09
  11 [21:12] <Etienne> OK, let's start!
  12 [21:12] <sat> I will write the minutes
  13 [21:12] <Etienne> Great, thank you!
  14 [21:13] <FD> Thank you, if you want we may do this one after the other.
  15 [21:13] <sat> I'm fine with writing minutes every time, but if you like too...
  16 [21:13] <Etienne> Until the agenda is loaded in my browser (he is at strike for the moment): are there any comments for the minutes of the meeting of 23.12.2019?
  17 [21:14] <sat> DId you see my log file?
  18 [21:14] <FD> yes, I see it.
  19 [21:15] <Etienne> Yes,  I did. That's fine.
  20 [21:15] <Etienne> (I do not arrive to have log files this way; I put my files only, if no one else did it)
  21 [21:15] <FD> Etienne, better to add .txt at the end of the file.
  22 [21:15] <FD> You will get the same result as Sasha got.
  23 [21:16] <FD> This is the little magic trick.
  24 [21:16] --> Treasurer (Treasurer@82-64-151-41.subs.proxad.net) hat #board-meeting betreten
  25 [21:17] <FD> Salut Frédéric, bienvenue.
  26 [21:17] <Treasurer> Salut Frédéric, bonne année.
  27 [21:17] <sat> Salut
  28 [21:18] <Etienne> Bonsoir Frédéric G
  29 [21:18] <Treasurer> Bonsoir Etienne R
  30 [21:19] <Treasurer> Salut sat. Since a lot of us are constantly logged, I can't know who's alive tonight!
  31 [21:19] <Etienne> FD, Treasurer, Etienne, sat are here
  32 [21:19] <FD> True. Difficult to know who actually listen to the meeting.
  33 [21:20] <FD> I would like to see Lambert to take part, for instance.
  34 [21:20] <Etienne> As there are no comments to the minutes: I move to accept the minutes from 2019-12-23.
  35 [21:20] <sat> I have prepared a motion already
  36 [21:21] <Etienne> Sorry, sat, put your motion, please.
  37 [21:21] <sat> I move to accept the minutes from 2019-12-23
  38 [21:21] <FD> I second and vote yes
  39 [21:21] <Etienne> aye
  40 [21:22] <sat> aye
  41 [21:22] <Treasurer> aye
  42 [21:22] <sat> shall I record your votes?
  43 [21:23] <Etienne> Passed. Thankk you for voting and thank you sat for writing.
  44 [21:23] <Etienne> If you like.
  45 [21:24] <sat> Done for all!
  46 [21:26] <Etienne> About the mail I sent today on the board private list: we have some issues with paypal. they blocked our account even for receiving money. Treasurer and I do our best to get it fixed.
  47 [21:28] <Etienne> The reason is silly: The block us completely, because they need some information that their system does not accept.
  48 [21:29] <FD> Does Paypal rejects donations/payements to our account, or takes the money and freeze it?
  49 [21:29] <Etienne> Other tihnigs from board private or board public to share?
  50 [21:29] <Treasurer> Yes, they reject on top of freezing
  51 [21:30] <Etienne> I wrote them an official letter today, if there is no solution within 24 hours, I will complain at australian finace department. I hope, it helps.
  52 [21:31] <Treasurer> Yes, you did a nice job in finding this type of action
  53 [21:31] <FD> May we deliver the required documents to Paypal by snail mail?
  54 [21:32] <Etienne> no, upload it and your are told it's not the good document, even you upload a form you downloaded from them!?
  55 [21:33] <sat> As we are already discussing Finance, shall we move 2.2 to the top of our agenda?
  56 [21:34] <FD> Good idea.
  57 [21:34] <Etienne> We will fix it (instead of fixing other problems). Yes, Treasurer, please can you make a resumee?
  58 [21:34] <Treasurer> We have around 8500 Eur in Paypar account
  59 [21:35] <Etienne> What about the zoom meeting?
  60 [21:35] <Treasurer> I type... We had a meeting with 2 treasurer volunteers
  61 [21:35] <Treasurer> last Sunday, Brian and I
  62 [21:36] <Treasurer> One of them unfortunately missed the schedule
  63 [21:36] --> pnunn (pnunn@eth3936.vic.adsl.internode.on.net) hat #board-meeting betreten
  64 [21:36] <FD> Hi Peter!
  65 [21:36] <Etienne> Good morning pnunn, we are at 2. Finances (jumped 1. Critical Team)
  66 [21:37] <pnunn> Sorry I'm late.
  67 [21:37] <FD> https://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee/MeetingAgendasAndMinutes/2020-01-09
  68 [21:37] <pnunn> Yep.. got it.
  69 [21:37] <Treasurer> So, we had time to go deeper with Christophe M, a Belgian professional accountant located in Antwerp, Belgium
  70 [21:38] <Treasurer> https://be.linkedin.com/in/...
  71 [21:39] <Treasurer> He is very enthousiastic about contributing to CAcert for these tasks, that he said he is used to for previous non-profit association on his spare time.
  72 [21:39] <pnunn> Sounds good.
  73 [21:40] <Treasurer> The other one is Bret W, an Australian one I know less, because I didn't have the opportunity to share a video meeting with him, enthousiastic as well
  74 [21:40] <Treasurer> www.linkedin.com/in/... 
  75 [21:42] <FD> No news from Michael Henry Z?
  76 [21:42] <pnunn> Being in Perth would bring yet another time zone into play.
  77 [21:42] <pnunn> For Bret that is.
  78 [21:43] <FD> No news from Michael J, from UK?
  79 [21:43] <Treasurer> The plan Brian and I suggest is to welcome Christophe and Bret, provide the materials to Christophe and give him the Treasurer official rank, with Bret as support and me to help with all I know from the history and know-how I got along last years
  80 [21:44] <Etienne> If we have a financial team that works independent and give reports every x month, this would be fine and no problem with time zones.
  81 [21:45] <Etienne> For me, the plan sounds good.
  82 [21:46] <Treasurer> @FD Yes, I believe having answered you privately. Michael Z is very hill and declined volunteering and no answer from Judd to my messages
  83 [21:46] <FD> Thank you. I failed to read you. I will.
  84 [21:47] <pnunn> Sound like a good plane. I guess the westpac account things could be easier with an Australian on board atreast in the interim.
  85 [21:47] <Etienne> That's a good point too, pnunn.
  86 [21:47] <Treasurer> So, we are lucky to have received such couple of peopel. My questions are now: since we have planned a draft of actions to embark them, what is the administrative and official process?
  87 [21:48] <Etienne> As the AGM is over, the committee nominate new board members if there is a place vacant.
  88 [21:49] <sat> as we decided in last meeting
  89 [21:49] <Etienne> That means: prepare the nomination, retrait of FG, nomination of CM & Co.
  90 [21:50] <Etienne> Shall we do this in the february meeting?
  91 [21:50] <Treasurer> Yes, I remember the intentions. My questions are more about what Etienne just wrote
  92 [21:50] <sat> it would be nice if both of them could attend next board meeting
  93 [21:51] <pnunn> The time may need to move. It would be 6am now in Perth I think.
  94 [21:51] <Treasurer> Perfect for February. According to what we are discussing now, I can talk with Christophe and prepare him for the next meeting. He has to warn his professional association, even for volunteer accounting responsabilities.
  95 [21:53] <Treasurer> For the invoice in the Agenda, Secure-u received a lot of donations
  96 [21:53] <Etienne> I think, best is, if treasurer prepares it
  97 [21:54] <Etienne> 3. Invoice is jusst formal: we have to vote it (and pay after paypal allows it)
  98 [21:55] <Treasurer> I move to pay the invoice 2019-2 from secure-U of €237.85
  99 [21:55] <Etienne> second and aye
 100 [21:55] <pnunn> aye
 101 [21:55] <sat> aye
 102 [21:55] <Treasurer> aye
 103 [21:56] <Treasurer> Thank you, finance point 2 is over now
 104 [21:56] <FD> €237.85 because they deduced the donations form the grand total?
 105 [21:56] <Treasurer> yes
 106 [21:56] <Etienne> yes FD
 107 [21:56] <FD> yes
 108 [21:57] <Treasurer> €1537.85 -€1300 donations = €237.85
 109 [21:57] <FD> I just would like to remind us that payments in Euros must be performed from a euro account, in order to avoid excessive exchange fees.
 110 [21:59] <Etienne> If everything goes well, we will have a bank account in Europe until the next invoice will arrive.
 111 [21:59] <FD> ;-)
 112 [21:59] <Etienne> 1. Critical Team without egal becomes difficult. While reading the text about re-classification in the agenda: What do you think about it?
 113 [22:01] --> bdmc (bdmc@user-0c8huj1.cable.mindspring.com) hat #board-meeting betreten
 114 [22:01] <pnunn> I'm not sure I'm qualified to give a definative responce, but, it does seem logical that the machines in question are not overly critical to the security of the system as a whole.
 115 [22:01] <FD> Hi Brian!
 116 [22:01] <pnunn> Morning Brian.
 117 [22:01] <bdmc> I apologise.  I got my days and times mixed up.  B-(
 118 [22:01] <FD> Who is in Critical Team at the moment. One person?
 119 [22:02] <Treasurer> Hi Brian, we are also sat and Etienne
 120 [22:02] <FD> We never have been so many members of the Committee meeting together :-)
 121 [22:03] <bdmc> Nice to "see" everybody.
 122 [22:03] <Etienne> CT is one with ABC and one to be introduced.
 123 [22:04] <Etienne> and ABCed
 124 [22:04] <FD> May I ask for their names?
 125 [22:04] <Etienne> The ABCed one is Dirk A.
 126 [22:05] <Etienne> For the other one, I have to check my log files.
 127 [22:06] <FD> Thank you.
 128 [22:07] <FD> Regarding the today topic, looks to me strange to exclude certificates revocation mechanisms from the critical perimeter.
 129 [22:08] <FD> Certificates validation is the very core business of any Certificate Authority, isn'it?
 130 [22:08] <bdmc> FD: I agree.  I would think that that would be something that we want to keep close.
 131 [22:08] <Etienne> The second one is Norbert
 132 [22:09] <FD> BIT should be happy to have bandwidth to invoice us.
 133 [22:09] <pnunn> Not so sure, we are talking revocation, not issue. I guess someone could remove a revocation which wouldn't be good.
 134 [22:09] <FD> Likely, there is a reason why the matter suddenly pops up now?
 135 [22:13] <Etienne> I do not know more details. I am just wondering, what happens with the out sourced band wide? Would that be for free?
 136 [22:14] <Etienne> Any other questions? Then ask and I will send all questions to teh critical team and ask for clarification.
 137 [22:14] <bdmc> I suppose that it depends on whether this is a "volunteer" machine, or a commercial one.
 138 [22:14] <Etienne> Is a volunteer machine as save as a commerical machine?
 139 [22:16] <FD> The talk makes not a lot of sense. I see no Certificate Authority which would "outsource" its revocation servers to the PC of one of his employee.
 140 [22:17] <bdmc> Depends on who is providing it.  If it is a commercial company who is offering a free machine, that is one thing.  If it is just a "personal" machine, that is completely different.
 141 [22:18] <FD> At first, we don't even know what the root cause which makes the matter to be discussed today. What is the problem with the existing architecture?
 142 [22:18] <bdmc> I agree.  I saw the thread, but don't remember details, and why they propoosed the change.
 143 [22:18] <bdmc> ( or even proposed )
 144 [22:20] <Etienne> I propose to send our concerns and questions to egal and ask him to answer until or during netx meeting.
 145 [22:22] <bdmc> I agree.
 146 [22:22] <FD> Remember that I proposed to have talks with the (still) existing team leaders at CAcert? The matter raised by Dirk might be a good occasion to invite him to such a live talk next week.
 147 [22:24] <Etienne> Sound good.
 148 [22:25] <sat> we have 2.1.1 to discuss - status of applications
 149 [22:31] <pnunn> Did we not do 2.1.1 earlier?
 150 [22:32] <Etienne> We know who, but not more. He need information from egal.
 151 [22:32] <FD> The truth is that we did not prepare the topic. Our last contact with applicants were back in Q3 2019, am I right^
 152 [22:32] <FD> > right ?
 153 [22:33] <sat> pnunn: Ah, now I understand what you meant "without egal becomes difficult"
 154 [22:34] <bdmc> Possibly Q4, but not later than late November, as I remember.
 155 [22:34] <Etienne> egal just arrived, I think we will get some more information in a minute.
 156 [22:44] <sat> Next topic is Questions. Nothing in the agenda. Anyone?
 157 [22:46] <FD> Just I wondered if we should renew our grant application to Comcast, with another topic. A few days ago, they sent us a (generic) proposal to do so.
 158 [22:46] <pnunn> Is much work involved?
 159 [22:48] <FD> Depends how many people we are at wording the application together and how much creative we want to be. I would say between 2 and 3 days of work.
 160 [22:49] <pnunn> I'm happy to help if I can if you decide to go ahead.I just saw the time.. I'm sorry folks, I must away to get into smoke filled capital of our burning state.
 161 [22:49] <sat> Can this be done over mailing list?
 162 [22:50] <FD> Furthermore, we should get someone at Comcast explaining what they want from applicants, otherwise this is like a shot in the fog.
 163 [22:51] <FD> @Sasha. From our experience with Brian and Frederic last year, the best work is achieved in live, working together simoultaneously on a single shared document (for instance hosted on google docs).
 164 [22:52] <sat> I'd like to see the doc from last application as a start
 165 [22:52] <bdmc> pnunn: Try to have a good day.  We are thinking of you.
 166 [22:53] <FD> Have a good day, Peter!
 167 [22:53] <sat> Bye Pter
 168 [22:53] <sat> Bye Peter
 169 [22:53] <-- pnunn (pnunn@eth3936.vic.adsl.internode.on.net) hat das Netzwerk verlassen (Quit:)
 170 [22:55] <sat> Do we know reasons why last application was rejected?
 171 [22:55] <FD> Dear Frederic,
 172 [22:55] <FD> I regret to inform you that the Comcast Innovation Fund has declined to fund your grant proposal titled  2019-231 || Web identity by CAcert. We have a limited budget and receive a great many proposals, and so there are many valuable and interesting ones that we simply do not have the financial resources to support. We also assess proposals based on our business and technical interests, and these interests are constantly evolving.
 173 [22:55] <FD> While we have declined to fund this proposal, that should not necessarily be considered a reflection of the value of your proposed work. In addition, we encourage you to consider applying for a different grant in the future.
 174 [22:55] <FD> Best regards,
 175 [22:56] <bdmc> We don't seem to really get answers that explain anything.
 176 [22:56] <FD> As usual.
 177 [22:56] <bdmc> However, this answer does say either "luck of the draw," or "somebody else was more interesting."
 178 [22:57] <FD> We partially based our application to the housekeeping of our existing code.
 179 [22:57] <FD> We may find a more focused topic, which would be able to trigger their insterest.
 180 [22:58] <FD> Making CAcert compatible with ACME Certbot for instance.
 181 [22:59] <FD> Or making CAcert the default Certificate Authority for MailEnvelope (some code has to be written here too).
 182 [23:01] <FD> Or writing a plugin for Nextcloud making the deployment of CAcert's certificate snappy for the average Joe who wants its Nextcloud at home.
 183 [23:02] <bdmc> FD: I like that last one.  I knew the other two.
 184 [23:02] <FD> Anyway, we may focus our application on one single short termed application development project, better than talking about our great ideas on personal identity and security.
 185 [23:02] <sat> That reminds me of getting certification creation at work again in browsers
 186 [23:02] <FD> Developing applications needs manpowe, i.e. remuneration, i.e. fundings.
 187 [23:03] <bdmc> Which reminds me.  I need to go back to the people who offered to sponsor us.  I haven't heard anything from any of them, again.
 188 [23:05] <sat> Next meeting is on February 6th, according to our new rule of thumb - everyone ok with this?
 189 [23:06] <bdmc> I have had a "side-channel" request for the second Thursday, rather than the first.  What do people prefer?
 190 [23:06] <sat> I don't mind
 191 [23:06] <FD> I will be on vacation with children on the 6th, and would have preferred to postpone by one week.
 192 [23:07] <sat> Etienne?
 193 [23:07] <-- Etienne (2efdbfd9@localhost) hat das Netzwerk verlassen (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand-crafted IRC client)
 194 [23:07] <sat> I kicked him...
 195 [23:07] <bdmc> Do we want to make this official, or just, as Sat said, a "rule of thumb?"
 196 [23:08] <bdmc> Unofficial vote -- does the Second Thursday of each month, subject to random changes, work for everybody who are left?
 197 [23:08] <sat> The rule of thumb is the result of last meeting
 198 [23:09] <FD> Let's the rule of thumb rule.
 199 [23:09] <sat> I am fine with second Thursday
 200 [23:09] <bdmc> sat: Yes, I know.  Etienne told me that that had happened before I arrived.
 201 [23:09] <sat> bdmc: Why second Thursday each month?
 202 [23:10] <sat> Are you busy on every first?
 203 [23:10] --> Etienne (2efdbfd9@localhost) hat #board-meeting betreten
 204 [23:10] <egal> for the next meeting(s) ... first thursday will not fit from my site ...
 205 [23:10] <bdmc> Since Etienne suggested the Second, and it doesn't seem to matter to most of us, FD prefers the Second for February, shall we say that we agree?
 206 [23:10] <egal> second thursday will be fine ...
 207 [23:10] <FD> Hi Dirk!
 208 [23:11] <sat> rules of thumb are there to change at will
 209 [23:11] <sat> so be it the second
 210 [23:11] <egal> first thursday i have another meeting ... that's why i'm late today
 211 [23:11] <Etienne> 13.02.2020 20:00 UTC
 212 [23:11] <egal> (in january it's usually the second thursday ... ;-9 )
 213 [23:11] <bdmc> egal: Should I point out that today is the Second?
 214 [23:11] <bdmc> B-)
 215 [23:11] <FD> OK Etienne, see you all on Thursday the 13th.
 216 [23:12] <bdmc> Darn!  Not Friday the 13th?
 217 [23:12] <egal> may i come back to Christophe M?
 218 [23:12] <bdmc> I will put it on my calendar now.
 219 [23:12] <FD> Dirk, may we organise a video call with you next week, on a few live topics (critical team, RCL, and so on) ?
 220 [23:13] <egal> i'll be on fosdem on 1st of february in bruessel ... which is not far away from antwerp ...
 221 [23:13] <egal> maybe it's possible, that he shows up at fosdem on saturday for a meet&greet ...
 222 [23:14] <egal> (i'll not be at fosdem on sunday due to another appointment)
 223 [23:14] <Treasurer> @egal asking doesn't cost anything
 224 [23:14] <Etienne> That is a good ocasion to meet people personaly. We have to check our candidates around Brussels.
 225 [23:16] <Etienne> So, before closing the meeting: Any comments or questions?
 226 [23:17] <Etienne> FD will organise Team leader calls, strting next week with critical team lead.
 227 [23:17] <Treasurer> thank you for your involvement
 228 [23:18] <Etienne> Treasurer will organise the hand over until next meeting and resolve the paypal issue together with Etienne who is also preparing the opening of the european bank account in mid february.
 229 [23:18] <FD> @Sasha: when posting the log of the meeting on the wiki, may you anonymize the family names of the persons who we talked about?
 230 [23:18] <sat> sure
 231 [23:19] <Etienne> What more will be done in the next weeks?
 232 [23:19] <FD> @egal: Dirk, may we organise a video call with you next week, on a few live topics (critical team, RCL, and so on) ?
 233 [23:21] <sat> Etienne: Arbitration is still our Achilles heel, isn't it? Need to get that going
 234 [23:22] <egal> @fd: maybe ... unfortunately i don't know the schedule next week ... ;-(
 235 [23:22] <egal> @fd: do you have plans to visit fosdem? ;-)
 236 [23:22] <Etienne> FD and egal, can you fix date and time tomorrow before 17:00 CET?
 237 [23:23] <FD> @egal: may I call you at work tomorrow morning for scheduling the video call?
 238 [23:24] <egal> nope
 239 [23:24] <Etienne> egal, how FD can shedul the call?
 240 [23:25] <egal> on friday i'm usually in the office in cologne ... unfortunatly we only have one room there using with several colleges
 241 [23:26] <egal> means: i can't do any meeting during office time there (except company/customer-related)
 242 [23:26] <Etienne> egal, FD will not do the meeting on friday, just call you to fix a date and a time, when you have access to your agenda.
 243 [23:27] <egal> aehm ... company-agenda is planned on a day-by-day-basis ...
 244 [23:28] <Etienne> egal, maybe FD is also available after or before business hours
 245 [23:29] <sat> Bye folks, I'm off to bed! (will stay in IRC for the log)
 246 [23:29] <FD> See you Sasha!
 247 [23:29] <Etienne> sat, just one minute, please
 248 [23:29] <sat> yes?
 249 [23:30] <Etienne> No, go to sleep, that is more important, i will send you an e-mail. Good night.
 250 [23:30] <bdmc> Good evening, All. 
 251 [23:31] <FD> Have a nice day, Brian,
 252 [23:33] <Etienne> Good bye Brian, I will close the meeting with the restriction, that FD and egal cannot leave before found a way to shedule their call.
 253 [23:35] <egal> ey ... may alarm clock wakes me up at 5:30 ...
 254 [23:35] <Etienne> egal, first the call date!
 255 [23:35] <egal> means: less than 6 hours of sleep this night ... need to sleep faster ... ;-)
 256 [23:36] <egal> i can't ... as i don't know the schedule for next week .. not even for monday ... ;-(
 257 [23:36] <egal> (chatting with FD in a side-channel)
 258 [23:36] <Etienne> egal, say FD he should call you onmonday at 9 to shedule a call maybe on wednesday evening or friday midnight