1         #board-meeting
   2         #CAcert
   3         egal
   4 
   5 22:01:10
   6 [NickServ]
   7 Welcome to CAcert, Etienne! Here on CAcert, we provide services to enable the registration of nicknames and channels! For details, type /msg NickServ help and /msg ChanServ help. 
   8 22:01:10
   9 → Etienne has joined 
  10 22:01:41
  11 bdmc
  12 Greetings, All. 
  13 22:01:45
  14 Etienne
  15 hello, sorry, I am late. 
  16 22:01:59
  17 bdmc
  18 Shall we start, or wait for others? 
  19 22:02:44
  20 So far, there are only the two of us. 
  21 22:03:26
  22 Etienne
  23 Well, start with things that not need a quorum: 
  24 22:03:36
  25 I will write the minutes. 
  26 22:03:58
  27 bdmc
  28 I have a hard stop at 23:45 ( 21:45 UTC ) because I have a meeting following this. 
  29 22:04:20
  30 Etienne
  31 Timelimit: could we tray 90 minutes? (tomorrow II have to travel in the early morning) 
  32 22:04:40
  33 OK: goal:21:30 with 15 minutes margin. 
  34 22:05:03
  35 bdmc
  36 That sounds good to me.  I have been very disappointed by the lack ( except yours ) of response to all of my messages over the past couple of weeks. 
  37 22:05:44
  38 Etienne
  39 For the minutes, we can skip them and I put them to the vote bot, so everyone can accept it today or tomorrow online. 
  40 22:06:06
  41 bdmc
  42 Good enough.  Also, probably, the mailing lists. 
  43 22:06:43
  44 In fact, at this point, I don't see anything in the Agenda that can be done without others. 
  45 22:07:03
  46 I know, we can do Question Period!  B-) 
  47 22:08:45
  48 Etienne
  49 in between, you can vote for the minutes: https://motion.cacert.org/motions/ 
  50 22:09:09
  51 bdmc
  52 If we don't see anybody in the next 15 minutes, should be schedule another meeting for the 17th?  I seem to remember some people said that they would prefer today to then, because they couldn't attend next week. 
  53 22:09:57
  54 I see that the Minutes for the 5th aren't there yet. 
  55 22:12:21
  56 Etienne
  57 No, but at least the irc script is added. I hope to have some more thime in the next 10 days whyle beeing in the mountains with my son. 
  58 22:12:29
  59 egal
  60 while the board-meeting is not yet started ... maybe we could a little bit smalltalk ... -) 
  61 22:12:32
  62 ;-) 
  63 22:12:39
  64 hi from germany ... 
  65 22:12:43
  66 bdmc
  67 Thank you, Dirk.  Nice to see you. 
  68 22:13:00
  69 Also, Etienne, your link for the Minutes for the 26th, points at the 19th. 
  70 22:13:15
  71 Etienne
  72 Hello again, Dirk 
  73 22:13:37
  74 egal
  75 well ... i'll not stay online for long ... as my phonecall yesterday took some longer ... 
  76 22:13:40
  77 bdmc
  78 egal: One small note.  Did you see my question about RoundQube?  ( e-mail a couple of weeks ago ) 
  79 22:14:33
  80 egal
  81 nope ... but i'm sure i received it ... should be somewhere within my 6500+ mails in my inbox ... 
  82 22:14:34
  83 Etienne
  84 bdmc: sorry, it is fixed now (copy-paste-error) 
  85 22:14:54
  86 bdmc: send it to egal now to his gmx address. 
  87 22:15:28
  88 bdmc
  89 That was where I sent, if I remember correctly.  ( not to support, but only to Dirk. ) 
  90 22:16:05
  91 egal: I know that problem.  I managed to reduce mine to 9800 recently. 
  92 22:16:25
  93 I will re-send now. 
  94 22:20:10
  95 bdmc
  96 Found it.  From the 20th, and re-sent just now. 
  97 22:21:18
  98 bdmc
  99 Etienne: How do I vote?  I tried clicking on the "Aye" "Naye" "Abstain" buttons, and nothign. 
 100 22:21:23
 101 ( nothing ) 
 102 22:23:15
 103 Etienne
 104 There are two kind of buttons: white ones with a green/red/gray border and under them full coulored ones. Click on the full coulored ones. 
 105 22:23:40
 106 Are you logged in with your certificate? 
 107 22:24:48
 108 bdmc
 109 That's what I did.  No, I didn't.  I only have the white ones with couloured print. 
 110 22:25:08
 111 As far as I know.  I was prompted for a certificate when I went to that page. 
 112 22:26:18
 113 Etienne
 114 The white ones shows only the results. 
 115 22:26:22
 116 bdmc
 117 I tried a hard refresh ( Shift-Click ) and nothing changed. 
 118 22:26:52
 119 Does it care which CAcert Certificate I use? 
 120 22:26:54
 121 egal
 122 @bdmc ... you have mail ... ;-) 
 123 22:27:15
 124 bdmc
 125 egal:  Oh, No!  Not more mail.  B-) 
 126 22:27:39
 127 Etienne
 128 bdmc: you have to log in as Brian Mc Cullough  brian.mccullough@cacert.org 
 129 22:27:41
 130 egal
 131 @etienne ... did you talk about critical team with bdmc within the last 24 hours? 
 132 22:28:59
 133 bdmc
 134 egal: Thank you.  That was what I am doing, now that I got the correct credentials for Thunderbird.  So just discard CAcert Roundcube until we put some of our infrastructure people to work? 
 135 22:29:06
 136 Etienne
 137 I snt him an resumee at 23:14 UTC last night. 
 138 22:29:30
 139 bdmc
 140 Etienne: I didn't see a login prompt.  Just a certificate prompt.  Where should I look for that? 
 141 22:30:01
 142 Etienne: I will have to look for that.  I only saw your reply to Wytze. 
 143 22:30:08
 144 Etienne
 145 You need a certificate with this mail address or a secretary who can put you votes as a proxy ;-) 
 146 22:30:49
 147 some more information: 
 148 22:30:49
 149 - Mark O is one of the remaining 3 active secure-U members (Mark, Dirk, 
 150 22:30:49
 151 Ted) -> would be a good choice 
 152 22:30:49
 153 - Stefan K(omann) is member of the Access Team (they work at BIT and do 
 154 22:30:49
 155 things for secure-U). Other Access Team members are Rudi van Drumen, Bas 
 156 22:30:49
 157 van Dikkenberg, Hans Verbeek, R.L.M. Engelberking. -> not ask 
 158 22:30:49
 159  
 160 22:30:49
 161 Dirk (most probabely with Joost) is willing to escort the local members of 
 162 22:30:49
 163 the new crit. team to the hand over. As they have a lot of background 
 164 22:30:49
 165 knowledge from CAcert, they can probabely profit more than new members from 
 166 22:30:49
 167 what Wytze will tell as they see it always in the whole context. So, Mark 
 168 22:30:49
 169 will not be alone. I hope we will have at least one more new one. It is a 
 170 22:30:49
 171 propositions to securing knowledge. We have to give them an official 
 172 22:30:49
 173 mission (for access to BIT), both have an ABC. Dirk will be on the meeting 
 174 22:30:49
 175 during the first hour and meet Joost on the weekend. 
 176 22:32:24
 177 egal
 178 i'll try to meet joost at the weekend ... 
 179 22:32:33
 180 bdmc
 181 Etienne:  Hmmm.  I don't seem to have that message at all.  Only your meeting invitations. 
 182 22:33:09
 183 egal:  Thank you for the help.  I have been having no responses to any of the messages that I have been sending out. 
 184 22:34:33
 185 bdmc
 186 One that I thought of approaching was Mendel Mobach, who is, as far as I know, on the Infrastructure Support team. 
 187 22:34:37
 188 Etienne
 189 bdmc, can you send me an e-mail with the names/adresses of the people you contacted? So I can dig deeper. 
 190 22:35:00
 191 egal
 192 mendel is critical team member ... 
 193 22:35:02
 194 Etienne
 195 Mendel Mobach is in the Crit Team with Wytze and resigning. 
 196 22:35:23
 197 bdmc
 198 Oh.  OK.  I had not seen his name before. 
 199 22:35:48
 200 Etienne
 201 Wytze wrote it in April, I think. (long time ago) 
 202 22:36:16
 203 bdmc
 204 I also wrote to Remko Van der Vossen and Raoul Boerlage through LinkedIn. 
 205 22:36:37
 206 I saw his message, I guess that I didn't remember that name. 
 207 22:37:32
 208 Etienne
 209 Did you ask Mark Overmeer? Gereon Stein? Florian Wolters? 
 210 22:37:35
 211 egal
 212 raoul tells me something ... remko doesn't ... 
 213 22:37:58
 214 bdmc
 215 I don't recognize any of those names, so no. 
 216 22:38:32
 217 I know that Frederic was doing some research before the 360k as well.  I don't think that we exchanged lists. 
 218 22:38:39
 219 Etienne
 220 Do you have access to "Brian McCullough <bmccullough@cacert.org>"? 
 221 22:38:57
 222 bdmc
 223 Yes, just a moment, while I get that fixed. 
 224 22:39:11
 225 Etienne
 226 I sent a list to this address at Mon 7. Oct 22:21:42 
 227 22:40:34
 228 egal
 229 for karl-heinz i plan to start support-training late october, early november ... so he should be able to take support and (maybe) software assessment-roles ... 
 230 22:40:56
 231 Etienne
 232 That sounds good, egal. 
 233 22:46:51
 234 egal
 235 starting by tomorrow (or saturday) i'll be on holiday for a week (-ish) ... hopefully with internet ... but i'm not sure ... ;-( 
 236 22:47:29
 237 bdmc
 238 Etienne: OK, I definitely used the certificate for bmccullough@cacert.org this time, and nothing changed on the Motion page. 
 239 22:47:58
 240 egal: Sometimes no Internet is a Good thing!  B-) 
 241 22:49:06
 242 egal
 243 my inbox will explode before i'm back ... ;-) 
 244 22:49:33
 245 Etienne
 246 egal: 6000 or 7000 is not a big difference ;-) 
 247 22:50:57
 248 bdmc
 249 egal: the host for mail, both incoming and outgoing is mail.cacert.org, isn't it? 
 250 22:51:39
 251 Etienne
 252 bdmc: for the next 30 min, we could discuss the real important things and put all the needed motions in the vote bot (7 days), so we will have decisons to act next thursday. 
 253 22:51:52
 254 bdmc
 255 Etienne: Normally, all mail to bmccullough@cacert.org is automatically forwarded to my main mailbox. 
 256 22:52:41
 257 I guess that we could do that.  I am concerned that nobody else is contributing. 
 258 22:54:30
 259 bdmc
 260 egal: Thunderbird doesn't seem to want to configure itself with "bmccullough" and "mail.cacert.org."  Can you think of what I am missing? 
 261 22:54:43
 262 Etienne
 263 And if you have some issues with the login, write me an email and I can do proxy votes. Or tell it here (If you don't mind) 
 264 22:56:26
 265 bdmc
 266 I don't get a login prompt at all.  I get a prompt for which certificate I want to use, which I answer with "bmccullough@cacert.org," coming from CAcert, of course, so the e-mail address is correct, but I don't get the active motion site. 
 267 22:56:58
 268 I am willing to vote Aye on the 19th and the 26th. 
 269 22:58:29
 270 bdmc
 271 Etienne: That certificate is perhaps a month old, but that shouldn't matter, should it? 
 272 22:58:34
 273 Etienne
 274 OK, done. Start with 2.1.1. ? or 2.2.2. 
 275 22:59:10
 276 bdmc: ask JanDD, I don not know, He is the creator and the maintainer. 
 277 23:00:26
 278 bdmc
 279 I set up Thunderbird successfully on my laptop, I just thought that I would set it up now ( adding an account ) here on my main machine, but no success.  I will look for that message on my laptop, later. 
 280 23:01:10
 281 The numbering on the Agenda is weird.  What is the title of the item you are asking for? 
 282 23:02:05
 283 dops
 284 Regarding mail: I connect to community.cacert.org. 
 285 23:02:12
 286 Etienne
 287 New members or People proposed to help managing 
 288 23:02:59
 289 bdmc
 290 dops: Thank you.  I will try that. 
 291 23:03:13
 292 Etienne: How about new members, that one should be easy. 
 293 23:03:37
 294 Etienne
 295 Should I do 3 motions? 
 296 23:04:06
 297 bdmc
 298 Certainly.  Each person is unique. 
 299 23:04:12
 300 Etienne
 301 Dominik and Peter, we had some more information, Grégoire is an "old" community member from France. 
 302 23:04:24
 303 bdmc
 304 dops: Thank you.  That did it.  I could have sworn that the mail server was mail.  B-( 
 305 23:05:05
 306 dops
 307 bdmc: Facing to the external world, yes. 
 308 23:05:07
 309 bdmc
 310 Etienne: Mark me as Aye for each. 
 311 23:05:23
 312 Etienne
 313 OK. 
 314 23:05:42
 315 bdmc
 316 dops: And here I thought that I was external.  Nice to know! 
 317 23:07:04
 318 Etienne
 319 Now, the question, who is helping, escorting, coach people who wants to help *managing and *finances? 
 320 23:07:31
 321 bdmc
 322 Etienne:  I found your messages!  For some reason they didn't get passed on to me. 
 323 23:07:36
 324 Etienne
 325 Maybe we need the others for that question. 
 326 23:07:51
 327 bdmc
 328 I have been asking that question ever since the 360k! 
 329 23:08:47
 330 Etienne
 331 bdmc: Good: Maybe you can write to this people after your other meeting CC or BCC to me (eruedin @ c.o.) and I will step in 24-48 h later? 
 332 23:08:49
 333 bdmc
 334 Gero has been trying to help with Systems Administrators, and perhaps others, in JanDD's absence. 
 335 23:09:40
 336 OK.  Who should we target.  We are talking about Team Leads and Senior people who can guide new members, correct? 
 337 23:09:45
 338 Etienne
 339 I do it for OrgA. Sometimes a mail to all, sometimes 1:1... 
 340 23:09:53
 341 yes 
 342 23:10:20
 343 bdmc
 344 OK.  So let's talk about a list.  The headings that I have are: 
 345 23:10:26
 346 Etienne
 347 guide, motivate, coach 
 348 23:10:43
 349 bdmc
 350 Critical Team -- I see Dirk offering to help there. 
 351 23:11:02
 352 ( along with Wytze, to some extent ) 
 353 23:11:16
 354 Support -- Dirk again? 
 355 23:13:08
 356 egal
 357 as we got feedback from ted, that karl-heinz ABC is passed (ruling has only to be written), he can take my support-seat ... (after training) 
 358 23:13:38
 359 bdmc
 360 OK.  Do all of the Support people have to have ABC? 
 361 23:13:52
 362 Etienne
 363 To tell you the truth: Making support appealing to people, leading them there step by step... I don't think that's Dirks thing - unless we have phone numbers and he can call them. 
 364 23:14:01
 365 ABC: Triage not, Support yes. 
 366 23:14:10
 367 egal
 368 yep ... support, critical and software-assessment ... 
 369 23:14:27
 370 infra, triage, tester/coder doesn't need an ABC 
 371 23:14:48
 372 bdmc
 373 That was what I thought I understood.  So we start people off with triage ( and perhaps initial response ), and then move them on as they prove themselves. 
 374 23:15:07
 375 egal
 376 initial idea was to "level up" from infra/tester/coder/triage to critical/software-assessment/support 
 377 23:15:16
 378 bdmc
 379 But, again, who introduces the new people to Triage. 
 380 23:15:31
 381 egal
 382 in theory: joost ... ;-) 
 383 23:15:33
 384 bdmc
 385 ( I keep losing "?" these days. ) 
 386 23:16:06
 387 OK.  We need to add him to our discussions. ( and to the "new sys admin volunteers" mailing list ) 
 388 23:16:40
 389 Etienne
 390 bdmc, egal will try to get Joost for Crit Team as local member. 
 391 23:16:52
 392 bdmc
 393 Anything else for new Support volunteers? 
 394 23:17:13
 395 Good point.  Can he do both? 
 396 23:17:31
 397 Not permanently, but to get new people started? 
 398 23:17:41
 399 Etienne
 400 Can he or is he willing to? 
 401 23:17:49
 402 bdmc
 403 Yes. 
 404 23:18:04
 405 Etienne
 406 egal, can you discuss this tomorrow or on sunday? 
 407 23:19:52
 408 bdmc
 409 OK, next is Arbitration.  I haven't been involved with this. 
 410 23:20:26
 411 Ted?  Although he is involved with Developers. 
 412 23:20:29
 413 Etienne
 414 Me neither. 
 415 23:21:46
 416 bdmc
 417 Next, Infrastructure. 
 418 23:22:06
 419 dops: are you willing to take a stronger role here, if we can talk to JanDD? 
 420 23:22:19
 421 Etienne
 422 For critical team, I will to two motions, one for Mark (Nr. 2) and one for Dirk/Joost (assist at hand over and step in on an interim base). ABC start when ready again. 
 423 23:22:47
 424 bdmc
 425 Good.  Put me down as Aye for each. 
 426 23:22:53
 427 egal
 428 it's my plan to talk to joost about critical and support ... ;-) 
 429 23:22:55
 430 Etienne
 431 OK 
 432 23:23:04
 433 egal
 434 why mark? 
 435 23:23:07
 436 bdmc
 437 egal: Thank you. 
 438 23:23:17
 439 egal
 440 (as he doesn't have an ABC) 
 441 23:23:55
 442 ABCs should be trigged by teamleads ... not by board ... ;-) 
 443 23:24:06
 444 (means: by wytze, joost or me) 
 445 23:24:06
 446 bdmc
 447 He was on our original ( post 360k ) list that we presented to Wytze.  That was before we knew about your offer. 
 448 23:24:09
 449 Etienne
 450 egal, board started a recruiting process for critical team and Mark is the first one of them. 
 451 23:25:03
 452 egal
 453 well ... it's only following our workflow ... no mistrust in mark ... ;-) 
 454 23:25:19
 455 (mark is a valuable board member at secure-u ... ;-) ) 
 456 23:25:40
 457 bdmc
 458 We weren't trying to bypass ABC, we were just running out of options. 
 459 23:25:59
 460 ( and time ) 
 461 23:26:30
 462 Etienne
 463 If we wait until we have ABC first, we will have no Crit, no Support, no .... no... etc. Board did some background check,not arbitrated of course, but as we can propose the candidates with  peace of conscience to arbitration to start the ABC as soon as it is back. 
 464 23:26:45
 465 bdmc
 466 If you really want to hold Mark until an ABC can be performed, and you are volunteering to take over Critical Team, fine. 
 467 23:27:35
 468 Etienne
 469 (Mark is in the #CAcert channel tonight) 
 470 23:28:11
 471 bdmc
 472 Also, if you have any knowledge that indicates that he would not pass the ABC, then that would also be a good thing to know. 
 473 23:28:19
 474 egal
 475 hm ... i exchanged some mails with mark in the last days ... if joost has no time ... maybe i plan a visit in arnhem this weekend ... ;-) 
 476 23:28:52
 477 Etienne
 478 oh, a foreground check! 
 479 23:28:57
 480 bdmc
 481 B-) 
 482 23:29:00
 483 egal
 484 from my POV he should pass an ABC ... (but i'm not the arbitrator, who may pick up the case ... ;-) ) 
 485 23:29:14
 486 Etienne
 487 of course not, no one of us. 
 488 23:29:29
 489 egal
 490 in the last some minutes ... is @bdmc aware of the donations within the last month? 
 491 23:29:47
 492 bdmc
 493 Do either of you think that we should invite him to join us here? 
 494 23:30:05
 495 egal
 496 maybe not now, but for the next meeting ... 
 497 23:30:05
 498 bdmc
 499 egal: You mean the Paypal ones, or the secure-u ones? 
 500 23:30:10
 501 egal
 502 general ... ;-) 
 503 23:30:54
 504 bdmc
 505 I know that, fortunately, a lot of money has come in, and, consequently, our Treasurer has paid bills that we didn't expect him to. 
 506 23:31:10
 507 I don't have any real numbers. 
 508 23:31:11
 509 dops
 510 bdmc: I can take a stronger role if JanDD agrees. Don't know why he appears so silent - if he has concerns he should have (or take) a chance to discuss. (But again so that all are aware: I'm not a meber of the infrastructure team.) 
 511 23:31:47
 512 bdmc
 513 Thank you.  Do you know anybody who could be a "trainer" in Jan's place? 
 514 23:32:30
 515 I am concerned that we are being silent with our new volunteers, and I am worried that they will start disappearing again. 
 516 23:32:48
 517 ( 90 minutes ) 
 518 23:34:02
 519 bdmc
 520 One question that I don't expect anybody here to answer, but I can hope.   Does anybody know the Wiki page that shows the Job Descriptions?  I think that somebody recently either wrote or revised such a page, but I can't find the announcement. 
 521 23:34:11
 522 Etienne
 523 I think Jan overworked a bit at the beginning of September. At one point he also made it clear that he cannot/does not want to take on more tasks. I think we must clearly respect that. I am very happy about what he has been doing for years and don't want to lose him. 
 524 23:34:17
 525 dops
 526 Me too. On the devel list I didn't see noteworthy responses from new subscribers. 
 527 23:35:09
 528 bdmc
 529 There was some recent talk about the key generating process.  I don't remember what else.  Somebody talked about setting them to testing. 
 530 23:36:27
 531 bdmc
 532 Etienne:  I completely agree.  The problem is that we have too few people doing too many critical tasks, like Jan, and Dirk, and Wytze, and Ted, and you. 
 533 23:36:49
 534 egal
 535 <thinking loud> ... maybe dops can take some infra-system from my site ... so he can assist jandd for wiki/blog/...... ;-) 
 536 23:36:52
 537 Etienne
 538 As with <keygen>, you would have to address people directly about individual problems. What fits. That's probably the most effective. 
 539 23:37:32
 540 bdmc
 541 Agreed.  Unless they know what is needed, there is nothing to do. 
 542 23:37:36
 543 dops
 544 Would be good if Jan could state how he like things to get done. I also don't want to loose him, so it should important to know and respect his ideas. 
 545 23:38:10
 546 Etienne
 547 So nobody commits themselves to a team or something, but to a single task - and can grow into the team. 
 548 23:38:38
 549 Wasn't there one or two PHP specialists? 
 550 23:39:03
 551 bdmc
 552 When we had 75 ( or so ) people volunteer for Systems Administration, that was a lot to handle all at once. 
 553 23:39:51
 554 Etienne: There were several people with various talents.  I have wanted to get back to Development, but this 360K has been rather overwhelming. 
 555 23:39:53
 556 Etienne
 557 Who has the best overview in the bug tracker? 
 558 23:40:06
 559 bdmc
 560 ?? 
 561 23:40:18
 562 How do you mean? 
 563 23:40:32
 564 egal
 565 tasks to be done? ... ted 
 566 23:40:33
 567 bdmc
 568 Ted manages it, if that is what you are asking. 
 569 23:40:45
 570 Etienne
 571 bdmc: even if you can contact this talents one by one in the next weeks. I think this is a good idea. 
 572 23:41:07
 573 * egal being more of less currently more admin instead of developer 
 574 23:41:42
 575 bdmc
 576 Etienne: There are several ideas around right now, so I don't know which one you are talking about. 
 577 23:42:23
 578 ( 3 minutes ) 
 579 23:42:33
 580 Etienne
 581 bdmc: even if you can contact this talents one by one in the next weeks. I think this is a good idea. 
 582 23:43:15
 583 OK: Net meeting: 17 or 24? 
 584 23:43:30
 585 What about remote crit team members? Any names? 
 586 23:43:40
 587 bdmc
 588 Sorry.  "this talents"   I was talking about Systems Administrators, dops mentioned developers and Infrastructure, we mentioned Arbitration, and we haven't talked about several other things. 
 589 23:43:53
 590 I vote for the 17th. 
 591 23:44:09
 592 Etienne
 593 OK, will send the invitation. 
 594 23:44:21
 595 bdmc
 596 Yes, if you remember, we submitted two local and three or four remote members to Wytze. 
 597 23:44:46
 598 We have perhaps half a dozen others that we could offer to Dirk. 
 599 23:44:49
 600 Etienne
 601 Thank you to dops, egal and bdmc for beeing with us and working for a bright future of CAcert. 
 602 23:45:26
 603 Keep them in your mind, bdmc. 
 604 23:45:27
 605 bdmc
 606 Happy to make some progress. 
 607 23:45:50
 608 I have a spreadsheet that we prepared from the volunteer list. 
 609 23:45:51
 610 Etienne
 611 Good, bye, bdmc and happy next meeting! 
 612 23:46:17
 613 bdmc
 614 Good night all!  See you next time, and via e-mail. 
 615 23:46:45
 616 Etienne
 617 (the president has another meeting that started just one minute ago) 
 618 23:56:55
 619 ← bdmc has quit (Quit: leaving) 
 620 00:17:03