~GuKKDevel ~GuKKDevel_log @ChanServ bdmc decay dirk_on_server dops enyc Etienne FD nb nemunaire Peter sat Skeeper Treasurer ynazarov zerkalo [NickServ] Welcome to CAcert, Etienne! Here on CAcert, we provide services to enable the registration of nicknames and channels! For details, type /msg NickServ help and /msg ChanServ help. → Etienne has joined → FD has joined → Peter has joined FD Good morning Peter! Etienne Good morning, Peter! Good evenig, FD FD Bonsoir Etienne, Etienne Hello bdmc bdmc Greetings All Peter Good morning all The sun is peeking through the trees bdmc Well, I guess that we should get moving. I hereby call this meeting to order. → Treasurer has joined FD Bonsoir Frédéric! Etienne Hello Treasurer Treasurer Bonsoir Frédéric Bonsoir Etienne-le-suisse-le-secrétaire-général-le-plus-génial-du-monde bdmc Do we have two hours tonight? Treasurer Disclaimer : not for me, if possible. It is 22h and I must wake up 4h30 Etienne If we finish after 100 min, I would be happy bdmc Ouch. Treasurer right bdmc Well, we will trim the agenda as much as possible. Etienne Let's start! No minutes written, so we are faster. bdmc Shall we skip straight to 2.1.1 -- New Members? Etienne 1.6. Points from the last meeting should be on the agenda. bdmc All right -- Item 1.6 -- Etienne: Etienne New members: No1 is an legal entity. If we accept them bdmc Is this Item 1.6? Etienne it's on the AGM to fix the define the contribution (until now, we have only natural persons) Sorry, 2.1.1. bdmc True. So we will delay that decision, and add it as an item on the AGM Agenda. But back to 1.6. You had something for that? FD Lambert said he is positive on Karl-Heinz He said he just need to write de decision bdmc FD: I'm sorry. What is this related to? Etienne I said on 1.6. that I hopefully added everything to the agenda. FD https://wiki.cacert.org/Arbitrations/a20160816.1 Etienne bdmc: related to last meeting: DRO ask to ARB FD It is 1.6 (action points from the 05th of September Etienne FD cited answer from Arb. bdmc OK, but we are not at that Agenda Item, are we? FD https://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee/MeetingAgendasAndMinutes/2019-09-05#Actions bdmc Sorry. I was looking at the link from Item 1.6, and it doesn't point at that. FD Today's 1.6 directs to 2019-09-05 #Actions points, which directs to Karl-Heinz's ABC. bdmc I'm with you now. OK. Anything more on the September 5th items for 1.6? OK. Once again, the published copy of the Agenda, which I am using, is not as current as yours. More, or are we moving on? bdmc Nothing heard. I guess that we are moving on to Item 2.1.1. FD The good news here, is that Karl-Heinz will be able to join Support. bdmc We have, I think, agreed to postpone any decision on item 1. Items 2, 3, 4? Any discussion? FD Hans-Peter W is the only one who answered my question regarding who is he. He wrote: FD "Our family business https://weecks-kanaltechnik.de/" "My personal xing account (not very up-to-date) https://www.xing.com/profile/HansPeter_Weecks" "You may also find some records regarding my old company Maxina GmbH & Co. KG/Verwaltungs GmbH (https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Billiges-Billing-und-Gratis-Roaming-fuer-WLAN-Hotspots-112197.html; Slashdot; Stack Overflow) as well as my involvement in the FFII and against Software Patents. " He looks like someone we may want to have on-board. bdmc Do we know anything more about Dominik? Etienne Thank you, FD, for this inquieries and information. FD Dominik did not send back any answer. Etienne He fullfill all official requests. He sent, was he is told be statutes/wiki to send. bdmc I am willing, now, to make three motions, one for each candidate, to accept their application. Etienne I request that Hans-Peter Weecks, Germany, be accepted as a member of CAcert Inc. (last name will be W. in the motion for privacy reasons) bdmc Second Etienne aye Treasurer aye bdmc aye FD yes bdmc Etienne: When you record that, make it "I move that". FD I have a question regarding members who do not disclose more private details. bdmc FD: Yes? FD We had a talk about it with Etienne two days ago. What is the meaning of our vote, in case we do not know at all who we are voting for? → egal has joined FD For instance, Bernhard said he knows Sascha, but Sascha answered he does not know Bernhard. bdmc egal: As I remember, , correct? FD Or Dominik applies without being know by any of us? Etienne In the past we always sponsored people with no sponsor, even we do not know personal details. FD If the idea about our vote, is to "filter" people who may enter the association but harm it later, should we know a little bit who they are? Etienne (past = last 3 years) egal @bdmc ... as far as i know two CAcert-Inc-members "suggest" a new member ... bdmc Etienne: That is how I remember it, also. FD Who is suggesting Dominik ? bdmc Shall we then, delay the decision on Dominik? FD Or Sascha too Etienne egal: yes, but there is in the wiki also the possibility to apply with name, postal address, acceptance of CCA & CARS. Then usually board sposnosred bdmc FD: Why? Ted is his "sponsor." Etienne I move that Sascha Ternes, Germany, be accepted as a member of CAcert Inc. (last name will be T. in the motion system for privacy reasons) bdmc Second Peter aye FD I don't know, I abstain. Treasurer abstain bdmc aye Etienne aye bdmc I think that I am hearing that we are not ready to accept Dominik. Is that true? FD My point here is that we are very picky with our compliance with many rules and policies everywhere, and when it comes to new members, it looks like there is no rules so much. Etienne 3 or 4 ayes and some abst, no nayes = accepted FD For Dominik, you are right, but the same is true for Sascha. bdmc You do not trust Ted to offer us a good candidate? FD Bernhard said he knows Sascha, but Sascha answered that he made a mistake, he is not the guy Bernhard had in mind. Treasurer I think the same FD Sascha wrote: bdmc Ah. That was not what I heard earlier. FD "really? Just looked on my assurances but didn't find your name there." talking about Bernhard. bdmc So Ted was supposed to have assured this Sascha, not just knows him ( of him ) ? FD Yes. Bernhard wrote: "I had CAcert related contact with Sascha since 2014, so I am happy to second his application (if this is necessary at all)." Sascha then answered: "really? Just looked on my assurances but didn't find your name there." bdmc "CAcert related contact", not assurance. Etienne IMHO it is strange to sccept everyone during 3 years and at the moment, we invite people to join Inc, to delay things. We should accept people who apllied correctly. And the we can ask Inc to change the rules for the future or change how we apply the rules in the future. But not change during an ongoing proccess. bdmc There definitely seems to be some confusion here, between Ted and Sascha. However, we have already made a motion and voted. The time for discussion was really before that. FD Yes, but I had no time left to talk about it as I wanted before the motion was proposed. Basically, neither Dominik nor Sascha are sponsored by two CAcert Inc. members at the moment. This is my point. bdmc OK. If you insist, we can ask whether Etienne is willing to withdraw his motion, and we can carry on discussing this. FD I don't want to be seen as excessive. But either we claim to have rules, either we do not respect them. bdmc I will go wth the majority here, as far as further discussion. If we do agree with Frederic ( FD ) then we must re-examine the application of Hans-Peter. Did two members "sponsor" ( or suggest ) him? Etienne FD, you're right. Only in 2016, 2017 and 2018 the sponsors were always board members who knew something: We are looking for people who will get in touch with us. With this experience, I have put these candidates on the agenda and informed them accordingly. We can interpret the statutes more strictly. But we should announce this in advance and not during the ongoing process. Treasurer I think we are in a pivotal position, recovering from almost closure. After the colossal efforts of Etienne / Brian / Frederic and the current success, I think we have had the chance in the past to accept honest people on the board. Perhaps we are at risk now, and an alert like Frederic said could be heard. FD I guess this is fair for these people to be welcomed in October as well. September or October, does not make a big difference. Etienne What changes until October? E.g. Dominik's application complies 1:1 with the requirements. (the others were formulated freehand) FD Sounds difficult to have a fair understanding through the keyboard. What is so urgent with Dominik, Sascha and others, that we have to decide right now? We have not a clue who Dominik is, that is my whole point. Better to welcome him in October, knowing who he is, than voting now. Same for Sascha. Etienne Formally, we have to distinguish: FD would like to discuss how membership applications are handled. The agenda, however, is includes 4 members (2 of whom have already been voted on). FD I just outline that we should no take a quick and dirty decision, when there is no matter of urgency. Treasurer My opinion is like FD too. Nevertheless, I see Etienne insisting and, because of his long knowledge and his involvement in CAcert, I read what I needed and I'll accept the will of Etienne. FD Etienne, why does it look so important for you? bdmc On the other hand, perhaps we could add a link to the appropriate clause of the bylaws to the next Agenda, so that everybody could be familiar with the current rules, and finish this next meeting. bdmc We have approximately 30 minutes remaining for this meeting. Etienne I like to discuss the questions of procedure (relaxed rules or stricter) when we have the necessary time. But I am not a friend of application changes in an ongoing process. At the moment we have an agenda for 4 hours. Do you want to do it in 100 minutes and need 50 minutes for what took 5 minutes so far? FD I would just suggest to postpone the point and go ahead. Etienne We can put Domink and Function Office on the next agenda. bdmc Etienne: I don't think that we can decide Function Office here. I think that we need to ask the AGM, don't you? FD Yes bdmc I haven't read the bylaws recently, so I don't know what the wording on "members" is. Etienne I will read the statutes until next meeting bdmc Thank you. FD Thank you. bdmc OK. Very quickly on Item 2.1.2 I see that there have been about 6 voters, and November 22nd seems to be in the lead. Etienne https://dudle.inf.tu-dresden.de/agm2019/ bdmc For Item 2.1.3 -- We understand that Frederic ( Treasurer ) is leaving us, as is Peter M. Etienne Half of board members did not answer and both dates are a bad choice. Any better idea? Maybe a thursday bdmc Or a Saturday? We've done it on Saturday in the past. Etienne dops? egal? FD? Sat 23-11-2019 or Sat 30-11-2019 Peter I do not know what I am doing in November. Any time except Saturday morning. bdmc OK. So Friday night is out, but Saturday night is a possibility. Etienne Saturday evening would be Sunday morning for you Peter After the Westpac handover, I will not be attending meetings. Etienne Of course not, Peter. bdmc Yes, we understand. Etienne FD, Treasurer, what about Saturday 23/30? FD I am fine with the date. Etienne both? Treasurer I will arrange myself both bdmc Etienne: Would it be practical to send a message to all CAcert Inc members, asking two questions. One for the AGM date ( or point them to the poll ), and one asking for board volunteers. I know that we have had one or two in the answer to the 360K, as we are calling it. dops @Etienne: 30-11-2019 better for me Etienne 30-11-2019 - do we need a motion? bdmc If we want to "fix" it now. Yes, let us do one. Etienne bdmc: do it! bdmc I hereby move that we hold the 2019 Annual General Meeting on Saturday, 30 November 2019 and 20:00 UTC. Treasurer I second Etienne second and aye FD yes bdmc ( Darn! and = at ) Treasurer aye bdmc aye Etienne bdmc: For board members: we should contact the candidates. Asking at the members list did not get answers in the past. bdmc True. Do we have enough volunteers to fill both outstanding positions? Also, of course, we have the Australian requirement, but we can worry about that afterwards, if necessary. I think that the answer to my first question is "yes." Etienne Can I find them on the Excel sheet? bdmc I think so. Check with FD, as well, in case I missed anybody. Etienne I will check with FD and contact them. -> maybe some new Inc members! bdmc In fact, I see 7.5 check marks in that column. FD Regarding the to-be-elected treasurer, are we going to let the vote decide, or are we choosing him/her, as per a recruitment process? bdmc FD: You weren't around, I think, but we have talked in the past about a "finance committee," with the Board Member ( Treasurer ) being the chair of that committee. In that case, the Board Member doesn't actually need to be doing the bookkeeping. Etienne We can control this: Who fits which post? As "chair" (= elected) or in the corresponding team (e.g. finance team)? Subsequent proposal to AGM. bdmc Treasurer: Do you remember how many volunteers you had for that job? Treasurer at least 5 I have recorded all the volunteers in an Excel sheet FD I found 7 of them, two of them with a strong record track. bdmc I think, once we talk to the various Board and other possible candidates, that we should be good for the AGM. Etienne Great, so we will have a look at this in the next days (Frédéric&Frédéric&me) Treasurer ok FD Fine. bdmc I see 10, with two more possibles, in my spreadsheet. Moving on. Etienne A *brief* re-cap of the mailing that took place, and its results. (Brian) bdmc B-) OK, I don't know anything about bounces, I just saw the reasults. I didn't count donations, but we have had, so far, 174 volunteers of some sort. Several others with various issues and comments. ( FD can comment ) Of those 174, well over 100 volunteered to be systems administrators. I have sent a message to all of those people, and Gero and Jan and others are trying to handle that. I have also tried to point some of them to Dirk, and others can go to him, too. I sent a message to Wytze this morning, reporting on some of this, and promising more results soon. I think that's all for now. Treasurer I can add a financial result here if you wish FD One exciting point is that at least three different businesses proposed a cooperation, as they need a solution as ours in their business model. However, the lack of public trust for our root certificates might be a deal breaker for two of them. To be explored further. Etienne yes, please bdmc Treasurer: go ahead Etienne FD, maybe we create a corporate team to deal with them. bdmc should be in as president. bdmc FD: Other businesses offered some kind of sponsorship. Treasurer We received around 300 donations / funds in a big wave for a week 3-4 a day currently bdmc Treasurer: Do you have a record of the "subscriptions," the recurring donations, either monthly or otherwise? Treasurer I am writing receipt for each of them, and register in a sheet. Some of them doing monthly or yearly subscriptions Treasurer Not yet, too much work to absorb the flow. I am focusing on the receipts and will be more precise after or with the help of the new treasurer. FD How much do we have "automatic payment" activated by now? How much recurring money does it guaranties for the coming years? bdmc As our Treasurer knows, I have sent a personal Thank You note to all donors who gave more than ( and equal to ) 100. Etienne +1 Treasurer FD: I don't know yet FD How do AUD do we have at the moment? Same question for EUR. Do we have a USD sub-account within our Paypal account? How do -> How much bdmc FD: I think that that is more for the Finance part of the Agenda. FD Ok bdmc Anything more about the Mailing, for now? FD There is a big risk to have people assigned to teams, but team leaders not being available enough to lead them in the right way. Etienne (30 min left - what is pressing, what can be done next week?) bdmc OK, nothing heard. I want to spend a few minutes on Item 2.2.2 -- our Corporate person who wants to set up a recurring donation in exchange for "credit" on the web site. bdmc Do we want to discuss this, or just create a motion to accept his offer? Etienne Deep, deep in the wiki, we offer this kind of partnership. Peter Suggestion: https://linuxmint.com/sponsors.php bdmc In the "pit," correct? FD Wouldn't we better to negotiate a deal with him first, then make a motion later to accept the deal or to reject it? bdmc I think that he was only asking for his logo and perhaps a link to his business on the cacert.org home page. FD: you want to change his offer. OK, if you like. ( sorry -- offer? ) Peter Suggestion 2 for sponsors is the section in the following monthly announcement: https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3795 Etienne bdmc: has there to be a motion? IMHO more discussion needed FD BTW, we should urgently remove the logo + link to the Open Architecture Network, on our web front page. The domain disappeared and forward to something non related. Etienne FD-> there is a bug about this! FD I did not know. bdmc Etienne: No, that was why I asked whether we want to discuss this. Peter: Yes, we have looked at LinuxMint before. At the moment, we have very few corporate sponsors, two or three, I think. FD Worth to talk with our potential sponsor first, then close a deal, then have a motion. bdmc FD: My problem with that order, is that we have no authority to make such a deal outside of the Board. Etienne Decades ago, board proposed this kind of deals. We can just follow this road. bdmc Etienne and FD: We could have a motion authorising someone ( more than one, perhaps ) to investigate and return to the Board for final confirmation. FD As you wish. bdmc Up to you two. I just wonder about procedure. Anybody else can comment. FD I would go the way proposed by Etienne. Just follow the tradition. bdmc I don't really understand what he is proposing, but I guess that I will accept. Peter yes. Do it. There were donations in Westpac of $40, $25, $20. How do we celebrate that size donation? Etienne First negociate to know the details. Then disuss, vote. bdmc OK. We are skipping many items, and stopping at Item 2.5.1, briefly. Etienne Peter, the Treasurer usually sends a thank you mail. (if e-mail is known) Treasurer and a receipt FD Peter, do we have sub-accounts in USD or EUR at Westpac? Or at least a possibility to have such sub-account, should we choose to do it? bdmc I guess that we are doing Item 2.6, now. Treasurer it seems, does it? Peter There is an option listed for that. You are probably better collecting euros in a European bank for local spending. Peter Westpac statements are quarterly. Next one is end of October. There are three deposits this month. FD I was asking, trying to find the best way to get our Paypal money converted between USD/AUD/EUR. Thank you. This is an entire other matter, which we are not going to enter to now. bdmc There will be no time for anything other than 2.6 ( Finance ) since we are past our 100 minute deadline. Is anybody ready to address item 2.6.1? Peter I will email deposit details. Etienne Thank you, Peter. bdmc Peter: Were you able to get Administrative rights? Treasurer thank you. I need it to send receipts and record people Peter No admin rights bdmc OK. I guess that that is everything outstanding for item 2.6.1. Item 2.6.2 -- Treasurer, are you ready to talk about this item? ( I know that the donations are taking up most of your time. ) Treasurer I don't know what are the membership fees and what are donations or payments or even if it is relevant to distinguish them from the current cash in bdmc All right. How about current balances? ( short form ) Etienne It is important to be paid up as a member to have access to the AGM. €5,337.94 EUR $3,354.55 AUD $532.92 USD total ca.7,800 EUR & Westpac Treasurer I didn't send an email for calling to membership fees for not interfering with the great email. I can do that after, to collect more money. We will see. All donators could also tagged as members. We have in the Paypal account: €7,762.37 EUR = €5,299.73 EUR + $3,345.21 AUD + $532.92 bdmc Treasurer: No. They have to be in the register as Members. Etienne Treasurer, I will send an e-mail about membership fees. Donators of the community are not members of the association. Treasurer understood FD Where does the discrepancy between Etienne's figures and yours come from? Etienne I will send an e-mail at Treasurer bdmc Do we want to talk about Item 2.6.3? FD I would like to do so. Etienne FD: Treasurer copied earlier than me from PP. FD Ok After all invoices to Secure-U have been paid? Treasurer yes, no more debt Peter Westpac is $868.73 + $2304.29 with the donations. bdmc Treasurer: Yes, I saw something that said that you had paid the invoice before we authorised it. OK. Treasurer not before we authorised it, please. We voted to pay it two months ago. FD Frederic, how much did we had on Paypal (AUD/USD/EUR) before the 5th of September (before the 360K. mail) and how much do we have now? Treasurer see above what we have now, from the Paypal screen right now on end of July 2019 Paypal account was 647.29 EUR bdmc OK. We have come up to two hours, not 100 minutes, so I am ready to call this meeting closed. Our next meeting is currently scheduled for one week from today ( tonight ). Agreed? FD Ok Treasurer In a nutshell, we have roughly between 10 to 11000 EUR now. CAcert is saved, thanks to your wonderful job Etienne Thank you everyone! Have a nice day, Peter and bdmc! Good night Treasurer and FD and dops, egal! Treasurer agreed bye FD Good evening all. Good morning Peter. :-0 Peter Found transaction export to CSV. Sent in email. Bye. bdmc I guess that I should actually declare this meeting closed. Etienne +1 FD bye. Treasurer +1 ← Treasurer has left ← Peter has quit (Quit: Leaving) bdmc Good night everybody ( who is left ) B-) ← bdmc has quit (Quit: leaving) ← dops has left