Log of Board-meeting 2017-12-29-20:00 UTC

Timestamp all UTC +01:00

29.12.2017 [21:01:02] <GuKKDevel> Hi
29.12.2017 [21:01:08] <EtienneRuedin> Hi
29.12.2017 [21:03:13] <GuKKDevel> wie lange wollen wir warten?
29.12.2017 [21:03:42] <EtienneRuedin> Moment, ich versuche gerade die drei anderen zu erreichen.
29.12.2017 [21:07:26] <EtienneRuedin> Das ist der Nachteil eines kleinen Vorstandes. Oft ist man dann nicht beschlussfähig.
29.12.2017 [21:10:15] <GuKKDevel> stimmt
29.12.2017 [21:10:29] <GuKKDevel> c.t.?
29.12.2017 [21:10:39] <GuKKDevel> 15 Min.?
29.12.2017 [21:11:36] <EtienneRuedin> Ich habe kurz deine Wiki-Seite angeschaut. Zu CATS: Ich habe da seinerzeit viel Zeit investiert, um Französisch fertig zu kriegen und einen Kompromiss mit allen beteiligten auszuhandeln. Als alles unter Dach und Fach war, ging es dann aber nie online (seit 2 Jahren).
29.12.2017 [21:12:12] <GuKKDevel> Auf der anderen Seite können wir doch einiges besprechen und dann zur Abstimmung außerhalb der Sitzung geben
29.12.2017 [21:12:42] <GuKKDevel> CATS: hier müssen wir auch aktiv werden, auch da ist MySql drin
29.12.2017 [21:13:40] <EtienneRuedin> Richtig. Mein Ansatz ist soviel bilateral wie möglich und so wenig wie möglich an den Sitzungen. Das scheint mir produktiver.
29.12.2017 [21:13:54] <EtienneRuedin> Ich glaube, technisch hast du mehr den Durchblick als ich.
29.12.2017 [21:14:16] <GuKKDevel> was meinst Du zu unserer finanziellen Situation?
29.12.2017 [21:14:23] <EtienneRuedin> Hello Brian  - we have a quorum!!!
29.12.2017 [21:14:25] <bdmc> I apologise for my tardiness.  I got caught up in traffic.
29.12.2017 [21:14:45] <GuKKDevel> HI Brian
29.12.2017 [21:14:56] <bdmc> Unfortunately, I only have 1.5 hours before I have to leave for work.
29.12.2017 [21:15:07] <bdmc> Greetings, All!
29.12.2017 [21:15:49] <EtienneRuedin> Brian, let's start, we are three at the moment: you, Karl-Heinz and me.
29.12.2017 [21:15:53] <bdmc> I guess, from Etienne's comment, that we have not yet started.
29.12.2017 [21:16:09] <bdmc> OK, We are gathered here today, to .....
29.12.2017 [21:16:12] <EtienneRuedin> As former Vice president, you could take the chair, could-you?
29.12.2017 [21:16:19] <bdmc> Of course.
29.12.2017 [21:16:26] <EtienneRuedin> So you can close, when you want 
29.12.2017 [21:16:38] <bdmc> I don't have the agenda in front of me, but my memory should serve, for now.
29.12.2017 [21:16:44] <bdmc> Who can do minutes?
29.12.2017 [21:17:08] <EtienneRuedin> I am not keen, but I will.
29.12.2017 [21:17:34] <bdmc> I understand.  Karl-Heinz reminded me that I had volunteered for a previous meeting, and not done it yet.
29.12.2017 [21:17:46] <GuKKDevel> can you advise me for the next minutes how to do them (Wiki and so)
29.12.2017 [21:17:47] <bdmc> OK, Messages from board or board-private?
29.12.2017 [21:18:08] <EtienneRuedin> @bdmc: for the AGM 2017
29.12.2017 [21:18:17] <bdmc> Certainly.  Are you available over the weekend, or not until next week?
29.12.2017 [21:18:51] <EtienneRuedin> https://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee/MeetingAgendasAndMinutes/2017-12-29
29.12.2017 [21:19:11] <bdmc> Anyway, back to the agenda.  XX:17 -- items from Board mailing list or Board-Private?
29.12.2017 [21:19:49] <EtienneRuedin> I saw a lot, but nothing for the meeting.
29.12.2017 [21:20:12] <bdmc> OK.  Do we want to talk about Action Items, or wait until next month?
29.12.2017 [21:20:25] <bdmc> ( I have nothing to report. )
29.12.2017 [21:20:32] <EtienneRuedin> Until next month, I can re-group the items.
29.12.2017 [21:20:47] <GuKKDevel> for me it is ok 
29.12.2017 [21:20:54] <EtienneRuedin> I erased the items done last period.
29.12.2017 [21:21:27] <bdmc> OK, So, on to the main section -- Item 2.1.1 -- Was that minutes that I had offered to do, or somebody else?
29.12.2017 [21:22:31] <EtienneRuedin> No, the minutes are written by me (you will write for the AGM). We can accept them, but XX and YY should be replaced (amount to pay for topic).
29.12.2017 [21:22:59] <EtienneRuedin> I do not have access to the voting system from home, only from work 
29.12.2017 [21:23:05] <bdmc> Oh, I see that there are Minutes.  Good.  Anybody want to comment, or shall we accept them? ( With future amendments. )
29.12.2017 [21:23:25] <bdmc> Yes, I think that both Peter and I commented on not being allowed to vote.
29.12.2017 [21:24:20] <EtienneRuedin> You can vote, as you where present, I should not, as I wrote it.
29.12.2017 [21:24:54] <bdmc> No, I meant as far as the VoteBot message that you sent out a couple of weeks ago.
29.12.2017 [21:25:34] <bdmc> I move that we accept these Minutes, pending the corrections that we have discussed. ( amounts for secure-u payment )
29.12.2017 [21:25:48] <GuKKDevel> second and aye
29.12.2017 [21:26:01] <EtienneRuedin> abstain
29.12.2017 [21:26:23] <bdmc> I would say that that is as unanimous as possible.  ( I am aye, of course. )
29.12.2017 [21:26:51] <bdmc> Next, Board Positions.
29.12.2017 [21:26:56] <EtienneRuedin> https://wiki.cacert.org/AGM/NewBoardCheckList
29.12.2017 [21:27:17] <EtienneRuedin> 5 people for 4 positions
29.12.2017 [21:27:34] <GuKKDevel> what about ross?
29.12.2017 [21:27:54] <GuKKDevel> and who was PO?
29.12.2017 [21:28:14] <bdmc> Etienne, please remind us.  Dirk, you, me, Karl-Heinz and Peter, correct?
29.12.2017 [21:28:26] <GuKKDevel> want these two to be in the board?
29.12.2017 [21:29:04] <EtienneRuedin> Ross could not come to the AGM, but he is willing to continue. We can appoint him today. 2.1.4
29.12.2017 [21:29:10] <bdmc> Karl-Heinz, I would suggest that we, as the new Board, contact Ross immediately.
29.12.2017 [21:29:25] <GuKKDevel> peter, etienne, brian, me 
29.12.2017 [21:29:27] <bdmc> OK, that will work.
29.12.2017 [21:29:37] <GuKKDevel> noone else
29.12.2017 [21:29:45] <bdmc> I thought that there was a fifth.  OK.
29.12.2017 [21:29:53] <GuKKDevel> ross was to be asked if he will again
29.12.2017 [21:30:03] <EtienneRuedin> Alex Samad will no more board member, but will be PO, if someone does the paper work. 2.1.5 sub committee for PO
29.12.2017 [21:30:14] <GuKKDevel> and who was PO, he was also menst to be asked
29.12.2017 [21:30:21] <bdmc> Yes, I saw that conversation.
29.12.2017 [21:30:44] <GuKKDevel> menst = meant
29.12.2017 [21:30:53] <bdmc> OK.  First, we need to talk about positions.  Etienne, would you accept Secretary, again?
29.12.2017 [21:31:49] <bdmc> Or, perhaps, Treasurer?
29.12.2017 [21:31:57] <GuKKDevel> bdmc: what about ross, else we are only four and only two from AU
29.12.2017 [21:32:15] <EtienneRuedin> Secretary would be better than treasurer
29.12.2017 [21:32:22] <bdmc> Yes, that was a situation that we had at the beginning of last year.
29.12.2017 [21:32:45] <bdmc> We will deal with it as soon as possible in the new year.  We don't need to settle everything today.
29.12.2017 [21:32:58] <GuKKDevel> iirc only peter is from AU
29.12.2017 [21:33:06] <bdmc> True, so far.
29.12.2017 [21:33:24] <EtienneRuedin> So, we need +2 AU, but
29.12.2017 [21:34:11] <EtienneRuedin> I put Alex again on the list on the wiki, I can remove him only after the form is sent to the OFT... if needed.
29.12.2017 [21:34:24] <EtienneRuedin> ross is also from AU
29.12.2017 [21:34:36] <EtienneRuedin> https://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee
29.12.2017 [21:34:36] <GuKKDevel> makes two AU still one missing
29.12.2017 [21:35:00] <bdmc> Agreed.  As I said, that is something that we will need to deal with next month.
29.12.2017 [21:35:11] <EtienneRuedin> No, if we appoint Ross today, we have two Peter=Victoria, Ross=Queensland
29.12.2017 [21:35:35] <GuKKDevel> ok fith alex there would be three
29.12.2017 [21:35:42] <GuKKDevel> fith = with
29.12.2017 [21:36:23] <EtienneRuedin> And we can find a somone to replace Alex as Brian said.
29.12.2017 [21:36:25] <bdmc> But since he has said that he has no interest in the Board ---- Well, I suppose that we can put his name on, and not ask him to participate.
29.12.2017 [21:36:36] <GuKKDevel> so we have three AU-members 
29.12.2017 [21:37:04] <bdmc> Two active.  Which is better than many times.
29.12.2017 [21:37:12] <GuKKDevel> correct
29.12.2017 [21:37:36] <bdmc> OK, since there are only three of us here, I have problems with going ahead with Board Positions.
29.12.2017 [21:37:41] <EtienneRuedin> He also wanted to give up PO altogether. It took a lot of negotiating skill to ensure that he remained pro forma PO.
29.12.2017 [21:37:50] <bdmc> Zgreed.
29.12.2017 [21:38:19] <bdmc> I don't understand his objections, but I haven't read those forms, so don't know.
29.12.2017 [21:39:00] <bdmc> Would anybody object to tabling 2.1.2 until next meeting?
29.12.2017 [21:39:14] <EtienneRuedin> Me neither, but I see, that Gero and I can do the work, If he remains officially in the position, as he is NSW resident.
29.12.2017 [21:39:22] <GuKKDevel> we should face the fact, we  are running out of money and software mid this year
29.12.2017 [21:40:08] <EtienneRuedin> Sorry, first 2.1.4/5, before 2.4
29.12.2017 [21:40:09] <bdmc> I don't think that the three of us can do anything about that today.  I agree that it is an urgent issue.
29.12.2017 [21:40:47] <bdmc> Yes, we have agreed on Ross for 2.1.4.
29.12.2017 [21:40:55] <bdmc> Do you want a formal vote?
29.12.2017 [21:41:27] <EtienneRuedin> I move to appoint Ross Krumbholz as a member of the committee of CAcert Inc.
29.12.2017 [21:41:31] <bdmc> Gero is an "assistant to the Board" this year, rather than a Board Member, correct?
29.12.2017 [21:41:35] <bdmc> Second and aye
29.12.2017 [21:41:43] <GuKKDevel> aye
29.12.2017 [21:41:43] <EtienneRuedin> aye
29.12.2017 [21:42:16] <GuKKDevel> I hope he does assist
29.12.2017 [21:43:01] <EtienneRuedin> Gero: Accepted to do the paper work for the PO and as the Position of the PO is critical, it would be better to have two people in this position.
29.12.2017 [21:43:06] <bdmc> As regarding 2.1.5, I move that we make paperwork for the Australian OFT part of the Secretary's tasks.
29.12.2017 [21:43:22] <bdmc> Then you can ask Gero to assist you.
29.12.2017 [21:43:29] <GuKKDevel> second and aye
29.12.2017 [21:44:32] <EtienneRuedin> More formal: I move to appoint Gero Treuner and Etienne Ruedin for the PO's sub committee.
29.12.2017 [21:45:24] <bdmc> Hmmm.  I suppose.  I would rather just move it under the Secretary, and that way it will continue.
29.12.2017 [21:45:48] <EtienneRuedin> and if the OFT ask some questions?
29.12.2017 [21:46:17] <bdmc> Correspondence for CAcert has always gone to the Secretary.
29.12.2017 [21:46:39] <bdmc> I am not saying that we abolish the PO's position, we can not do that.
29.12.2017 [21:46:41] <EtienneRuedin> It must be someone from NSW, but we can give him a typist. 
29.12.2017 [21:47:38] <bdmc> The PO is the Public Officer, the official representative of CAcert, Inc.  That does not mean that he is the only one who can speak to them.
29.12.2017 [21:48:00] <GuKKDevel> OFT asks PO, so you (brian) should withdraw your move and we handle etiennes
29.12.2017 [21:48:02] <bdmc> Perhaps not representative, but Contact.
29.12.2017 [21:48:29] <bdmc> All right.  I so do.
29.12.2017 [21:48:53] <GuKKDevel> <EtienneRuedin> More formal: I move to appoint Gero Treuner and Etienne Ruedin for the PO's sub committee.
29.12.2017 [21:49:22] <bdmc> That means that you two, in your own persons, are responsible for this paperwork, not the Secretary of CAcert, Inc.
29.12.2017 [21:50:23] <bdmc> ( 45 minutes )
29.12.2017 [21:50:33] <EtienneRuedin> yes, until a new committee/sub committee is elected
29.12.2017 [21:50:47] <GuKKDevel> responsible will be the PO at the end I think
29.12.2017 [21:50:55] <bdmc> As you like.  Second and aye
29.12.2017 [21:51:01] <GuKKDevel> aye
29.12.2017 [21:51:04] <EtienneRuedin> aye
29.12.2017 [21:51:19] <bdmc> Nothing for 2.2, correct?
29.12.2017 [21:51:27] <EtienneRuedin> 2.3 neither
29.12.2017 [21:51:59] <bdmc> 2.4 is a discussion item.  I don't think that we can get very far with this with so few people.
29.12.2017 [21:52:14] <bdmc> Perhaps we can suggest that we move it to board-private?
29.12.2017 [21:52:27] <GuKKDevel> I did some thoughts
29.12.2017 [21:52:48] <EtienneRuedin> Are there other people involved (software)?
29.12.2017 [21:52:52] <bdmc> I'm surprised that the version of Debian that we are using is that up-to-date.
29.12.2017 [21:53:09] <GuKKDevel> should we inform the cacert- community to donate us money?
29.12.2017 [21:53:15] <bdmc> Yes, there are various teams involved.
29.12.2017 [21:53:34] <GuKKDevel> should we inform the cacert- community to help us programming?
29.12.2017 [21:53:58] <EtienneRuedin> For money, however, we would need a concept: What do we do? How much does it cost?
29.12.2017 [21:54:00] <bdmc> We need Dirk, and perhaps others, to advise, but as I understand it, we have procedures and processes that are getting in the way of getting much done.
29.12.2017 [21:54:21] <GuKKDevel> I noticed, that most ofthe news only were spread in bort and members list
29.12.2017 [21:54:55] <EtienneRuedin> Unfortunately, many teams only consist of one or none at all.
29.12.2017 [21:55:06] <bdmc> GuKKDevel:  I agree.  The issue is much wider than just the members of CAcert, Inc.
29.12.2017 [21:55:46] <GuKKDevel> I will concentrate on programming with advise and help from dirk
29.12.2017 [21:55:47] <bdmc> Unfortunately, as Eva would tell us, we are not allowed to communicate with the community at large.
29.12.2017 [21:56:11] <bdmc> I am also willing to assist with any programming or even testing.
29.12.2017 [21:56:18] <GuKKDevel> and to make it worse our test-server has gone and we need another one 
29.12.2017 [21:56:23] <EtienneRuedin> When we go into the area, however, we should know what we need and why (future perspective).
29.12.2017 [21:56:44] <EtienneRuedin> Dirk found another test server, just days before the AGM!
29.12.2017 [21:57:08] <EtienneRuedin> on one of our machines.
29.12.2017 [21:57:20] <GuKKDevel> bdmc: when did eva say so?
29.12.2017 [21:57:32] <bdmc> Now we just need something to test!
29.12.2017 [21:57:51] <bdmc> Frequently, last year.
29.12.2017 [21:58:03] <GuKKDevel> did he install the server? what is the address?
29.12.2017 [21:58:36] <bdmc> I don't think that he gave details, just that he had been successful.
29.12.2017 [21:58:45] <EtienneRuedin> He wrote me just, that surpisely he found a not used test server.
29.12.2017 [21:59:10] <GuKKDevel> this would be great
29.12.2017 [21:59:44] <bdmc> OK, we can continue this for 15 or 20 more minutes, if we like, because all we have to do yet, is decide on the next meeting.
29.12.2017 [21:59:46] <EtienneRuedin> We can contact the community with a ruling from arbitration. So, we need one or two arbitrators back.
29.12.2017 [21:59:55] <GuKKDevel> but first he has to be updated with the old testservers software, before we can install the new OS
29.12.2017 [22:00:24] <GuKKDevel> so lets plan the next meeting first
29.12.2017 [22:00:33] <GuKKDevel> so lets plan the next meeting first
29.12.2017 [22:00:38] <EtienneRuedin> Dirk is at the CCC congress, ask him when he is back.
29.12.2017 [22:00:57] <GuKKDevel> we can discuss on board-list or board-private
29.12.2017 [22:01:17] <EtienneRuedin> @GuKKDevel: of course
29.12.2017 [22:01:28] <bdmc> Perhaps board-private, in case there are any sensitive items like IP addresses.
29.12.2017 [22:01:43] <EtienneRuedin> board is public, board-private not = more privacy
29.12.2017 [22:01:56] <bdmc> As far as next meeting, do we want to try for earlier in the month, or closer to a month from now?
29.12.2017 [22:02:33] <GuKKDevel> I know, but we should spread the news, the Url should also be given to the teams and to support-forum
29.12.2017 [22:02:47] <EtienneRuedin> Earlier would be better, as we have to communicate the positions to the OFT  before the end of January.
29.12.2017 [22:03:07] <GuKKDevel> imho we should me max two weeks between
29.12.2017 [22:03:44] <bdmc> Anybody have a calendar in front of them?  My memory says that next Friday would be about the 5th, and the one after would be the 12th.  Or not Friday?
29.12.2017 [22:04:00] <EtienneRuedin> I find board private better and regular info on board public, where further discussions can develop.
29.12.2017 [22:04:30] <GuKKDevel> for me fri is ok and 12th
29.12.2017 [22:04:38] <EtienneRuedin> Fridays: 5 & 12 Jan. 2018
29.12.2017 [22:04:51] <bdmc> 12th?  Etienne?
29.12.2017 [22:05:02] <GuKKDevel> 5th also
29.12.2017 [22:05:07] <EtienneRuedin> 12.01.2017 21 CET? (as today)
29.12.2017 [22:05:20] <bdmc> 2018, I hope!  B-)
29.12.2017 [22:05:37] <EtienneRuedin> 2018 
29.12.2017 [22:05:57] <bdmc> Can you send out a message soon, inviting everyone.  I hope that Peter can attend on Saturday morning.
29.12.2017 [22:06:04] <GuKKDevel> fine for me
29.12.2017 [22:06:18] <bdmc> Yes, I am fine with the 12th.
29.12.2017 [22:06:24] <EtienneRuedin> I will do it tonight (now).
29.12.2017 [22:06:37] <bdmc> Thank you.
29.12.2017 [22:06:42] <GuKKDevel> would it be correct to send the invitation to members and to cacert?
29.12.2017 [22:07:10] <bdmc> Yes, that is what is normally done, as I remember.
29.12.2017 [22:07:20] <EtienneRuedin> Please, ad all items you want until 48 hrs before the meeting
29.12.2017 [22:07:30] <bdmc> How do you mean "members and to cacert?
29.12.2017 [22:07:47] <EtienneRuedin> I sent it to board public, but I can sent it also to members and cacert.
29.12.2017 [22:07:53] <GuKKDevel> members-list and cacert-list and board-list
29.12.2017 [22:07:54] <bdmc> OK, I see.
29.12.2017 [22:08:13] <bdmc> OK, be back in a couple of minutes. 
29.12.2017 [22:08:16] <EtienneRuedin> cacert@lists.c.o members@lists.c.o., board@lists.c.o.
29.12.2017 [22:09:07] <GuKKDevel> I hope we can embrace the cacert community
29.12.2017 [22:09:23] <EtienneRuedin> I hope so too.
29.12.2017 [22:09:33] <GuKKDevel> embrace involve include
29.12.2017 [22:09:59] <EtienneRuedin> If there would be a perspective for browser inclusion, it would be a lot easier.
29.12.2017 [22:10:59] <GuKKDevel> yes but as we soooo short of money we couldn#T spare 50,000 $ or what ever it costs each year
29.12.2017 [22:11:14] <EtienneRuedin> Maybe we can go the let's-encrypt-way. They are not on the browsers too, but are cross signed with someone else.
29.12.2017 [22:12:17] <EtienneRuedin> A CA that signs only US banks for internal use = no concurrence with let's encrypt.
29.12.2017 [22:12:46] <GuKKDevel> I read a mesage that there would be the  same requests as for the browsers
29.12.2017 [22:13:38] <GuKKDevel> and we would fail an audit  as airc
29.12.2017 [22:14:07] <GuKKDevel> as I remember correct
29.12.2017 [22:14:20] <bdmc> I thought that letsencrypt was a subsidiary of some other "real CA," but I may be wrong.
29.12.2017 [22:14:52] <GuKKDevel> I read a mail on the support-list
29.12.2017 [22:15:09] <EtienneRuedin> have you the link, please?
29.12.2017 [22:15:38] <GuKKDevel> the most urgent thing is to release the resigned cert and to implemnt it into our own system
29.12.2017 [22:16:34] <bdmc> officially release
29.12.2017 [22:17:05] <bdmc> As I understand it, everything else has been done.
29.12.2017 [22:17:28] <EtienneRuedin> Always the urgent things first. Only then the desirable.
29.12.2017 [22:17:56] <bdmc> Too true!
29.12.2017 [22:18:31] <bdmc> If you even get to the desirable.
29.12.2017 [22:18:42] <GuKKDevel> iwill send the link to board-private
29.12.2017 [22:18:42] <EtienneRuedin> If I recall correctly, testers are missing for an official launch.
29.12.2017 [22:18:51] <EtienneRuedin> Thank you.
29.12.2017 [22:20:48] <GuKKDevel> I did the programmming with Ales and dirk started to implemnt the source code into the testsystem, but then he didn't have time to implement changes
29.12.2017 [22:21:54] <GuKKDevel> so brian 9 min to leave
29.12.2017 [22:22:32] <GuKKDevel> everything else we could do on the lists.
29.12.2017 [22:22:40] <GuKKDevel> I think
29.12.2017 [22:22:56] <EtienneRuedin> I agree.
29.12.2017 [22:23:21] <EtienneRuedin> (Brian, if there is still some traffic, you may leave some minutes earlyer.)
29.12.2017 [22:23:54] <bdmc> Not a problem.  I built in a bit of "padding," so that I will get to work on time.   B-)
29.12.2017 [22:24:03] <GuKKDevel> I hope ross will attend next time
29.12.2017 [22:24:11] <bdmc> However, I think that we have got as far as we can for today. 
29.12.2017 [22:24:18] <bdmc> And Peter.
29.12.2017 [22:24:27] <GuKKDevel> yes
29.12.2017 [22:24:50] <GuKKDevel> no time for questions from the floor
29.12.2017 [22:24:52] <bdmc> Shall I adjourn this meeting, or does anybody have anything else?
29.12.2017 [22:24:57] <GuKKDevel> for today
29.12.2017 [22:25:07] <bdmc> OK, any Questions from the floor?
29.12.2017 [22:25:24] <bdmc> I didn't think that there was a floor.   B-)
29.12.2017 [22:25:56] <GuKKDevel> B-);     I  only want to wish you a happy new year
29.12.2017 [22:26:20] <bdmc> As I was planning, just after I call this meeting complete.
29.12.2017 [22:26:38] <bdmc> Both of you have a very good weekend, and I will "see" you next year!
29.12.2017 [22:26:38] <EtienneRuedin> and good work, this afternoon (Brian) and a good night (Karl-Heinz).
29.12.2017 [22:27:00] <EtienneRuedin> Thank you and good bye.
29.12.2017 [22:27:05] <GuKKDevel> same to you etienne
29.12.2017 [22:27:12] <bdmc> 'Night, all.
29.12.2017 [22:27:18] <GuKKDevel> and brian