19:04 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> hello all together
19:04 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> good evening to all
19:04 #board-meeting: <@felix> hi
19:04 #board-meeting: <@StefanT> Godd Evening
19:05 #board-meeting: <@StefanT> Good Evening
19:05 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> I hereby open the extraordinary board meeting
19:05 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> at first I have to say that Jueregen is not able to participate in time because he is involved in some incident.
19:06 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> we are 4 board members
19:07 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> so we have a quorum
19:08 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> 1.1 Chair opens the Committee Meeting
19:08 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> 1.2 Accept the minutes from the last meeting. 
19:09 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> are there any comments?
19:09 #board-meeting: <@StefanT> No
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19:09 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> I move to accept the minutes
19:09 #board-meeting: <@StefanT> second & aye
19:09 #board-meeting: <@felix> aye
19:10 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> aye
19:10 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> aye
19:10 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> motion CARRIED
19:10 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Chair asks whether cacert-board-private maillist includes any items that need to be disclosed to Members. 
19:11 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> sorry
19:11 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> 1.3 Who is making minutes? 
19:11 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> I will do them
19:12 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> thank you, Marcus
19:12 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> 1.4 Chair asks whether cacert-board-private maillist includes any items that need to be disclosed to Members.
19:12 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> NO
19:12 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> nothing to my knowledge
19:13 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> 1.5 Chair asks whether cacert-board maillist includes any business items that aren't on the agenda yet.
19:13 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> YES
19:13 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> I send an email to board to put the issue "Etienne's email: call for SGM" on the agenda
19:14 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> and I put it on the agenda
19:14 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> I hae to ask if you all agree
19:14 #board-meeting: <@StefanT> aye
19:15 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> The mail from Enteienn arrivred on Tuesday morning, so we have to take it as late business.
19:15 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> aye
19:15 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> second & aye
19:15 #board-meeting: <@felix> aye
19:16 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> OK, late business
19:16 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> I wrote a send topic in my email.
19:17 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> We should make a final statement that the former board refused up to today the handover of documents.
19:18 #board-meeting: <@felix> (I think we got confused. Those to items were in a mail on board-private.)
19:19 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> second & aye
19:19 #board-meeting: <@felix> but I agree to put also this second Item on today's agenda
19:19 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> We know that e.g. Dirk, being the former president, got the key persons list and refused to handover.
19:20 #board-meeting: <@StefanT> aye
19:20 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> OK, late business
19:21 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> I updated the agenda
19:21 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> thank you.
19:21 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> 1.6 Chair introduces the URL of action items to the meeting, and asks for discussion.
19:22 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> nothing new here
19:22 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> The root re-sign was succesfully done on  2016-03-12 https://blog.cacert.org/2016/03/successful-root-re-sign/
19:23 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> We are now waiting for the software review to be done.
19:23 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> 2. Businesses 
19:24 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> 2.1 Discussion of the replies of Ian G to the hearing following the motion m20160228.3 "Move to enter the procedure following rule 12 of the statutes of CAcert Inc. to expell Ian G from CAcert Inc." 
19:24 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> first question to the floor
19:24 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> if Ian Grigg is present please change your name to your full name. Thank You.
19:28 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Ian Grigg is not present.
19:28 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Is this right?
19:28 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> I do not see his name
19:29 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> An invitation for this board meeting was sent to Ian on 2016-03-20 20:42 UTC
19:29 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> If he should participate in this meeting at any later time he will get the chance to speak personally.
19:29 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> the story:
19:30 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> During last board meeting a motion was made to enter into a procedure as described in § 12 of our statutes.
19:31 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> The motion said that we are going to expell Ian Grigg from CAcert Incorporated, if he continues to accuse board and board members by making false and defamatory statements.
19:32 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> We asked him to give an answer latest on 2016-03-20 23:59 UTC.
19:32 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> There have been 2 emails from him.
19:33 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> He continued his unfair playing and told us that we have to take the burden of proof. 
19:34 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> His last email on Sunday night may be seen as an answer to the last board meeting.
19:36 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Sunday night is meant as the time before 2016-03-20 23:59 UTC.
19:43 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM>  In his emails he continues to promote his false ideas. He wrote that CAcert Inc. has no need in following the Association Regulation Act 2010.
19:44 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> In an email send on 2016-03-12 15:53 he said that there is no need to follow the regulation.
19:46 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> What I see here is that if CAcert follows these comments we will loose very soon all acceptance of the community. We must work strictly on a base which is covered by the law.
19:48 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> The Office for Fair Trading, NSW, published on Monday, November 02, 2015 a document and wrote: cite
19:48 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Incorporated associations enable  community  interest groups to develop and provide  services to the ir members in a manner which is consistent with the ir purpose and  objects  and as set out in their constitution. Their legal identity is provided by the  Associations Incorporation Act 2009.
19:49 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> I wrote this in an answer to Ian.
19:49 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> for the records
19:49 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> the document is found here: http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/la/latabdoc.nsf/0/2363f9197977f8bdca257f0000028d2f/$FILE/Associations%20Statutory%20Review.PDF
19:53 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Another issue is a rule given inthe Association Regulation Act.
19:54 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Rule 10 Resolution of disputes (3) writes:
19:54 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> The  Commercial  Arbitration  Act  1984   applies  to  any  such  dispute referred to arbitration
19:54 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> This act references to the arbitration model of UNCITRAL.
19:55 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> the association regulation act is here
19:55 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/num_reg/aia2009air20102010238l11j2010784.pdf
19:56 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> the UNCITRAL model of arbitration is found here: http://www.uncitral.org/pdf/english/texts/arbitration/ml-arb/07-86998_Ebook.pdf
19:58 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> In my opinion we have to manage being in line with UNCITRAL by several reasons:
19:58 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> There are many countries which ratified an arbitration act and reference to UNCITRAL, e.g. Germany, Aaustria and NSW!
20:00 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> These acts require that an external arbitration tribunal and its sentences are only valid if the arbitration tribunal follows the rules as laid out in the act of those countries.
20:01 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> In my opinion CAcert must comply with the domestic law of the hosting country which is NSW, and must comply with UNCITRAL model of arbitration to survive!
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20:06 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Let's see the background of CAcert Incorporated.
20:06 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> https://svn.cacert.org/CAcert/CAcert_Inc/By-Laws/TradeOffice_AGM2007Reports_4392_001-Nov2007.pdf
20:12 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> In a previous  boardmeeting we cited a lot of Ian's emails, e.g. ""Elephant #1. The people who control the board now have (a) conducted a long-running campaign against Arbitration.""
20:13 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> We gave a comment that this statement is false. 
20:13 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> As I pointed out we have to make corrections to survive.
20:14 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Ian: CAcert is now in deadly embrace. Arbitration is no longer in effect, ...
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20:15 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> If Ian sees this differently he had time enough to bring arguments to proof this.
20:17 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Ian: "Elephant #4. Because the board has breached, the SGM has to replace the board."
20:18 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Once again, a false statement and based on this statement some "conclusion".
20:19 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Ian never took the burden of proof.
20:19 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> From my point of view Ian did not answer the questions nor did he proof his accusations. He just continued his false statements.
20:19 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Ian: "There is no permission for the board to conduct a star chamber. This is anathema to our culture."
20:20 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> There is no star chamber!
20:21 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Their order is to check if board acts in line with the law and our policies. And they should give advice to board if some or all of the actions in question *must* be tolerated in the meaning of free speech.
20:25 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> We want to know if we are acting properly. In that sense the commission can be seen as part of our audit.
20:30 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Another issue is that Ian (as well as others) are posting to various different mailinglists, possibly with the intent of upsetting or manipulating people.
20:38 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Last issue: Ian ignores consequently the fact that I, Reinhard Mutz, accused ian Grigg during the board meeting on 2016-02-28. I presented the complaints.
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20:43 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Currently he always addresses all five European members of the board as acting along a pre-decided storybook.
20:44 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> This assumption is wrong.
20:44 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> My trust in Ian Grigg came to a total breakdown.
20:45 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> my question to baord: are there any questions/comments?
20:46 #board-meeting: <@StefanT> Not from me
20:47 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> Nothing more as I said before.
20:49 #board-meeting: <@felix> I do not have any comments on that.
20:50 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> If Ian Grigg is present on the floor please change your nick to your full name.
20:52 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Ian Grigg is not present.
20:52 #board-meeting: <@felix> I don't see him either.
20:52 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> I cannot see him either.
20:54 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> I move to expell Ian Grigg from membership of CAcert Incorporated.
20:54 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> second & aye
20:54 #board-meeting: <@StefanT> aye
20:55 #board-meeting: <@felix> aye
20:56 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> I put it into our motion system.
20:59 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> The motion system will give an enddate. After that date secretary has to write the result to all involved parties. In case of the motion is CARRIED Ian is to be informed. He has the right for appeal. Please see rule 13 of our statutes.
21:00 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> next topic
21:00 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> 2.2 Late business
21:01 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> 2.2.1 Discussion about the email from Etienne Ruedin, subject "Invitation: CAcert SGM, Saturday, 9th of April 2016 at 12:00h UTC".
21:03 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> There are a lot of failures, e.g. missing the formal requirements of 4 supporters who *must* sign the agenda and send it to secretary (No. 26 (3) d of the stautes). Further we have agreed by motion to hold this SGM on April 10th. We comply with our statutes and the regulation act where is said that we have to convene such a meeting within one month after such request.
21:05 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> In regards to all errors and failures board always has the chance to call a SGM. It is my wish to clarify the current situation as early as possible. But I cannot accept that these guys always argue that we persistently breach our rules and statutes. Just to remember: it is Ian Grigg who made the community to believe that CAcert Incorporated may deliberately ignore the Association Regulation Act 2010.
21:07 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> I propose to help etienne and others to get the SGM hold on April 10th as decided by board.
21:08 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> aye
21:08 #board-meeting: <@StefanT> second
21:08 #board-meeting: <@felix> aye
21:10 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> So secretary will send out the agenda in time.
21:11 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> next topic
21:11 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> 2.2.2 final statement that the former board refused up to today the handover of documents 
21:11 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Dirk got the Key Persons List and refuses to hand it over to us. Remember his mail that he received this list on a private communication channel.
21:12 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> The only handover was done done by the former treasurer. For my best knowledge there are still a few procedures to clarify.
21:12 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> The task of handover of the Key Persons List is outstanding.
21:13 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> That is for the records.
21:14 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> ack
21:14 #board-meeting: <@StefanT> Ack
21:14 #board-meeting: <@felix> ack
21:14 #board-meeting: <@StefanT> I have to go.  Sorry. Good bye
21:14 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> bye
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21:15 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> Sorry I have to leave now. It is a pity that Ian did not show up.. 
21:15 #board-meeting: <@INOPIAE> bye
21:15 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> we lost a quorum.
21:15 #board-meeting: <@felix> Sorry, I also have to leave... so bye
21:15 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> I close hereby the meeting.
21:16 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> Thanks to the auditorium for taking part.
21:16 #board-meeting: <@reinhardM> good bye